CR 10012

I/V WITH ALFRED ARONSON, FORMER STAFF SERGEANT, 29TH NOV.1995

Q: Taking you back a number of years, tell me what was it like in Germany immediately before you met up with the Russians? What was happening with the Germans you were seeing? What was happening in the country around you?

A: Well, we had just, er, prior to meeting with the Russians, we had, er, taken the town - the City of Leipzig. And, er, the German people themselves I think were welcome, er, the American troops. They - they were, er, glad to see the American troops, because, er, they had a - a terrible fear of having Russians occupy or come into their - their area. So, er, we were greeted, er, by the population, er, rather - rather well. And, er, it was, erm, you know, as - as anything else, er, er, they were certainly short of so many things, you know, depraved - deprived of, er, food supplies and, er, whatever. And, er, it was - it was - it was a difficult time for them and yet, er, I think they were very relieved over the fact that the war was over for them at that point.

Q: Did any of them ever let on what it was they were fearful of about the Russians? What were the fears?

A: I think the fears were retaliation. Retaliation for what the German soldiers had inflicted upon the Russians when they invaded Russia. And they just felt that there would be a vengeance, er, on, er, behalf of the Russians to, you know, take - even up the score, if you will.

Q: How did you and your men feel towards the Germans?

A: We - yeah, we welcomed the Ger - there - there was no animosity towards the Germans, er, in fact, er, you know, many of the children were - that was, er, er, you know, we were very sympathetic towards the children, because they had been deprived of so much and, er, what candy we had we - we'd, you know, we'd distribute to children. And, er, chewing gum seemed to be a favourite. And, er, it was - it was, er, it was, erm, a good relationship, I think, with the children.

Q: Move us on to actually meeting up with the Russians. Lead me into the first actual contact that you and your men had, what you saw, what it was you felt at that time.

A: Well, you know, after the fall of Leipzig, we, er, had moved to about - oh, I'd say fifteen to twenty minutes further east to a town of Trebsen, which is located on the Mulde River. Now, orders came down that we could advance beyond that point. So we stayed there for a period of three to five days, when Katzabol, who was our lieutenant, came in one day and said, er, he'd got - he wants to get a patrol together, we're going to go and see if we can find some Russians. Well, none of us were too eager to go on that patrol really, because we realised the end of the war was imminent and, er, we didn't know what was out there. You know, we had gotten this far, why stick our necks out again? But, erm, you know, duty bound, er, we did - we did, er, go on the patrol. Now, we left actually on the afternoon of the 24th of April. We were the first patrol to go out. Er, we got as far as a town called Turan(?), where we stayed that night. Now, en route to that, er, town, we encountered many, many German soldiers on the road. And as soon as they saw we were Americans they immediately threw down their arms, put up their - their weapons, that is, and you know, er, surrendered meekly. There was no fight at all in them, and they were - they were just - they just wanted to know where the American lines were. Er, the first batch that we encountered, which was probably about seventy-five or a hundred, we sent one of the men back with them, as a - a guard, if you will. And we soon realised, following that, we were encountering so many that if we kept sending people back with these Germans, there was no - no one left on the patrol. So then we just took the senior officer, or - or a senior non con in the Germans, and asked them to - we pointed them in the right direction to find the American lines. And, er, just directed them to stay on the roads. Er, we took their weapons from them, destroyed their weapons, and, er, turned them loose. On the following morning, Katzabul took off with a couple of jeeps and I was left at Turan with the balance of the patrol. Er, we were right at the edge of our limit of communications with the regiment headquarters. So he went out and it was during that trip that he encountered this one lone Russian soldier. Er, after he talked with the soldier he had a - a German translator and he had a Russian translator with him. Er, the German translator was a fellow by the name of, erm, erm, gosh, Polowski, and the Russian was a - a medic, and his name was, er, Jawolski, I believe. Now, er, the Russian soldier told him where the main Russian troops were, on the other side of the Elbe, on the east bank of the Elbe. So he went there and, er, saw the Russians on the other side, they fired some flares, which were supposed to be the signal, green flares was the appropriate signal to fire, to let them know that they were - they were Americans. And, er, he proceeded to go across, but before that he then took Sergeant, er, Johnstone, who was our platoon sergeant, and had him return to where I was, to gather the rest of us to meet with him. So we then left Turan and went on to the Elbe. And the Russians had a, erm, er, pontoon type ferry, they had a cable strung across the River Elbe, and they would pull this pontoon ferry back and forth across the Elbe. And, er, this was the vehicle that we used to cross over to meet the Russians.

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Q: Were there orders from above that you were to meet up with the Russians?

A: Well, the - the orders were that we were to seek out the Russians if we had encountered any opposition from the Germans, we were not to engage them at all. Our mission was to see if there were Russians out there. Because apparently they, on the radio, they were hearing sign - er, sounds and - and voices, and - and communications that they felt were Russian. Er, but there was a limit, they were - the patrol was told not to exceed - go beyond five miles, er, from the River Mulde. Erm, on the morning of the 25th when they heard nothing from Katzabol, back at headquarters, they dispatched two more patrols, er, one patrol was under the, erm, command of a Major Craig, and a third patrol was under a Major Sykes. Now, Sykes was the only officer that followed the rules. He didn't go beyond five miles, searched around and came back. Er, Craig was a little more adventuresome, and he also encountered some Russian soldiers, and this was about 4.30 in the afternoon. Katzabol's meet - meeting with the Russians took place at about 11.30 in the morning.

Q: You get to the edge of the river, you see the pontoon bridge, were you aware that this really was a historic moment? Was there any feeling in yourself that this is it?

A: Well, we reckoned - we - we knew they were - they were Russians, they certainly weren't Germans. And, er, yeah, I - I think there was, to some extent. We were - we were - we were happy to see and - and make this link-up, because in our minds, now this, er, certainly meant that the end of the war was imminent, when the two forces joined up, er, er, Germany was at its end. So there was that joy, er, to the meeting. But there was also a curiosity, you know, er, whenever you meet someone strange or - or whom you haven't met before, you know, you're rather curious about what they're like. Unfortunately we had a very difficult time communicating because, er, very few of them, well, hardly any of them, spoke any English, and - with the exception of the one medic that we had, er, none of us spoke Russian. But as will happen in those - you know, you - you start pointing and - and they would look at our rifles and we'd look at their weapons, and they'd want to try our rifles and we'd try their weapons, and, er, they looked at our jeeps. Er, and an interesting, er, exposé was, er, they - they announced to us that their jeeps were better than our jeeps. And so we saw one of their jeeps and of course it was the same jeep, the only difference wthat the, er, the nomenclature on the jeep was all in Russian. It had been part of, er, a lend-lease, er, programme. But the Russians didn't know that. They felt this was a Russian jeep. So they were telling us how much better their jeep was than our jeep. And, er, so there's - there's a great deal of pride in their, er, in - in the - in their, er, those soldiers. Er, the, erm, the thing that amazed us was, er, the - how ill equipped they were really, compared to us. They had, er, their uniforms, their - their - a variety of uniforms were worn by this, er, by this group. Er, they still were using horse drawn wagons, horse drawn, er, er, er, er, cavalry pieces, or I should say artillery pieces. And, er, you know, rather primitive, er, we felt, in comparison to, you know, what we had. And, er, er, this - this struck us, er, quite - quite - quite, er, er, surely, because, you know, we - we couldn't, er, couldn't imagine how - how they could have advanced so well against the - the might of the Germans with such primitive weaponry, because we just saw the one - the one group. Now, that's not representative of the entire Soviet Army, I'm sure, but - but still it - that was a - a striking feature.

Q: How did this first meeting actually go on for?

A: Well, we - we actually met with them, er, well, from the early afternoon of, er, the 25th. We stayed overnight, er, through the 26th, then returned that following day, on the 27th.

Q: Tell me about that first night?

A: Well, the first night was a riot because, er, you know, we - we were accustomed that if we entered a town and - and out of town, we would - we would go and commandeer, if you will, or select several houses and say, well, this is going to be our billets and - and inform the Germans there that we were going to occupy them, er, and take advantage of the fact that we had a bed to sleep in. The Russians, er, the one thing that surprised us in this town was that, er, everything in the houses were thrown out in the middle of the street, er, beds, er, chinaware, er, they just threw everything out of the buildings. It looked like a disaster zone. And, er, I still don't understand what was behind their thinking, er, unless they felt that the floor was - was more comfortable than a bed, I don't know, but it was, er, it was really a strange sight to us. And, er, but we did - we did, er, er, occupy a home, and, er, we slept on the floor, because there were - there was no furniture in the house. And, er, the next morning we got up and, er, of course, initially, I should say, there was a great deal of toasting going on.

Q: Tell me how that started out, etc.

A: Well, the first toast was of course the - the vodka came out, er, and it seemed that every other Russian had either a harmonica or a concertina or some musical instrument. And, er, someone, er, said, well, here's to, er, Comrade Stalin, and then we drank to, er, er, President Truman, and then we drank a toast to Winston Churchill, and then we drank a toast to each other, and then we drank toasts to everyone else. And of course, you know how the Russian toasts are, it's bottoms up, it isn't just a - a sip. So, er, many of us were not feeling any pain, er, that first evening, believe me. And, er, the following day, er, Katzabol came up to me and he said, er, you know, he said, the officers that, er, we'd met here, we're having a dinner or - or luncheon, and he said, I think it would be a good idea if - if you and the other fellows ate with the Russian troops, it would be a, you know, a good sign of - of mixing, you know, moulding the two together. So I said, fine. So we, erm, I told the fellas we had - our lunch was going to be with the Russians, whatever they had. And, er, pretty soon this, er, looked like an antiquated fire engine came up, there's a big kettle on it, steam pouring out of a funnel. And the, er, mess sergeant was a woman. And she had this huge kettle of something. And we all had grabbed dishes from - from a nearby house, so we had our - our dishes. We were standing in line. And she ladled out this first serving of - of food, and it was a big glob of greasy meat and some soup. And it's the first time American soldiers became very, er, very courteous about, er, er, handling food. The first guy in line saw it, and he turned around and passed the plate to the fellow behind him, and that kept going. So that first plate kept going back, back, back, and the person at the end of the line was me. So I ended up with that first plate, everyone was being very generous in - in, er, passing it on. And, er, all eyes - of course, you know, the Russians were very curious to see what our reaction was going to be, and so we, er, we had to suffer through it. I still don't know what it was that we ate that day.

Q: What did it taste like?

A: Oh, terrible, it was a greasy - greasy soup or stew, something. But, er, I - I don't know. You know, they lived off the land, that's another thing the Russians, er, as opposed to our way of, er, er, you know, we had supplies, we had, er, er, rations that we carried with us if - if the kitchens couldn't, er, er, or mess - our mess supplies couldn't come up to us with food, so we always had an adequate supply of K rations or C rations that we could eat. Not so with the Russians, they had - they lived off the land. So, er, wherever they went, a cow, they'd slaughter a cow or a pig or - or a horse, or whatever, to eat. And, er, that was, you know, a big departure from the way we were accustomed to soldiering.

Q: You mentioned that the mess sergeant was a woman. Were there many Red Army women there?

A: Yes, there were several. Er, there was one -

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Q: What sort of Russians did you meet?

A: Well, there was - of course, this - this Russian mess sergeant, and then there was a, er, a Russian woman, she was an officer, er, in the group. And then there were some other Russian women, er, that were in support. And I - I don't know their - their functions, of course the mess, er, was obvious, she was in charge of cooking whatever - whatever food they, er, they were got or gathered. But, erm, the roles of the other women, er, some of them actually might have participated in the fighting. They had weapons, they were armed. So, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't participated in the actual fighting, er, with their troops.

Q: How did they seem to you?

A: Oh, they were very friendly, they were very friendly. And, er, they were, er, because, as I say, before, er, you know, the music was going and the harmonicas and concertinas and there was dancing and the Russian men were dancing, and the women would get up and dance, and so it was a - you know, it was a - really a festive occasion, everyone was - was happy. They were as equally as happy to see us as we were to see them. Erm, and there was good, erm, a good relationship, you know, it was a - on a one-to-one basis, er, you know, there was no animosity, no - no - other than the fact that there was that tinged, as I said, with the - with the jeep, you know, that they were superior, you know, their vehicle was better than ours. Other than that, er, you know, they - they really - they were just as - regular people. In fact, er, I guess we didn't know what to expect from the Russians, but when you looked at them and examined them, you couldn't tell whether, you know, if you put an American uniform on them they could have been American, you know, I mean, their - their features were the same, you know, there was no distinctive, er, erm, feature that would, er, set them apart from anyone else. So, it was, er, it was enlightening.

Q: Did any actual conversation take place, probably not, but did you actually learn any personal details about anybody or what they'd been through?

A: No, no, very little, very little of that. Er, there was - there was exchanging of - of - of gifts like patches, you know, we'd have a patch, er, er, some fellas took buttons off their uniforms and exchanged buttons, er, but there was very little communication, er, with the Russians as to, you know, where theywere, what they had done, anymore than they had asked us, you know, what our - our history has.

Q: How did the news of the meeting come out? Did you guys call back to headquarters?

A: Well, er, Katzabol at that first meeting, when - when Johnstone came back to where I was, we had the radio jeep, and he sent a message back to headquarters that they'd met the Russians. The Russians had been met and arrangements were being made for a meeting. But now he gave no other details. And, er, when that message was received back at the regimental headquarters, as I understand it, they were, you know, there was not enough information for them to say, oh yes, we've met the Russians, we've linked up. They - they didn't have any concrete, er, evidence of that in - in the message. Er, there was a second message came back, er, that they sent back, saying that, er, preparations were continuing, ongoing. At this point, er, this was about four o'clock in the afternoon, er, Craig's patrol had run into two of our jeeps and we brought Craig to the site where the meeting - where the Russians were. And this was the town of Kremnitz, on the east bank of the Elbe, or Kleinitz, I'm sure - Kleinitz I guess it is. And, erm, so Craig then, being the senior officer, he also sent messages back. But they were getting no response from, er, from headquarters. Er, the first reaction, as I understand it, back at headquarters, was one of, er, of, er, severe, er, you know, what are these guys doing out there, they weren't supposed to go beyond five miles, they disobeyed our orders, the division commander was very upset. In fact, there was even talk about, er, court martialling, er, people, because they, er, disobeyed the orders. Er, however it was about that time that, er, Robertson, whose patrol was not one of the official patrols, he - he was an S2 which was, er, or an S3 I guess, er, in, er, intelligence, he was in the I&R group of, er, regimental battalion headquarters, 1st Battalion. And he and three other fellas took off on a jeep and they were supposed to explore the roads immediately in the area of Wurzen, to, er, see the - the - the - what the Germans were up to, the German, er, flow of people, you know, what was happening. Well, he also went beyond his, er, er, supposed, er, er, distance, and - and got as far as Torgau. And of course at that point he - he had run into some Russians at the bridge. And of course what he did is he piled four - three Russians in the jeep and drove back to regimental headquarters with three Russians. So as soon as he arrived and word came that they had three Russians, er, at the headquarters, er, they said, my God, this - it's true, we've met the Russians. Er, it was his link-up took place about four o'clock in the afternoon. And that became the official, er, news of the link-up. Now all - all news of the - of the meeting was suppressed until the 27th of April, because word went back to each of the leaders of, er, the, er, America and Russia and England, er, so that a, er, simultaneous announcement could be made. So Churchill, er, Truman and Stalin all announced, on the 27th, that a link-up had occurred, that Russian and American troops had met at the Elbe. And Torgau being a much larger city, er, they zeroed in on - on having the subsequent meetings and - and - take place at Torgau.

Q: Tell me do things change very shortly after that? When do the dividing lines come down and when did you move back? Tell me what happened next.

A: Well, er, we returned back to Trebsen on the 27th and shortly after that our platoon, the third platoon, we were moved to, er, the radio transmitter station for Leipzig, which they call 'the Sender'. And we were stationed there to - to protect the - the Sender, because the, er, the Leipzig Radio was functioning, it was operating. So we were there to guard the, er, the Sender, to see that, er, it remained intact. Er, there were Signal Corps people there that were the technicians in, you know, taking care of the radio equipment, we were merely there to supply the infantry support and protection. And we oc - we stayed there for - I - no, of course, looking back fifty years, dates get a little fuzzy, but I think we were there at least three or four weeks. It was a - it was a wonderful location because, er, we had - there was a building, we had our own rooms, er, it was - it was, oh, great living. Er, our kitchen mess used to come every day and feed us, and - and, er, so it was - it was a - and we were away from the rest of the company so we were independent. Er, it was - it was - it was 'good duty' as they say. And, erm, one day, we - well, we got to know some of the townspeople because we took whatever food we had left over we would bring in to some of the townspeople for them. Er, I - I had located a, er, an orphanage, well - well, it was - I guess it was a children's' hospital really. And I went there several times. And we would bring food and candy and whatever for the children. And, er, so, you know, we - we tried to, erm, you know, blend in with - with the surrounding community, er, and - and - and help them as much as we could, because they - they had had very little in the way of food or, er, any amenities at all. So, erm, one day though we got word that, er, we were going to have to leave. And, er, we couldn't understand this. They said, well, the Russians are coming in. And this came as a shock to us really because we said, hey, look, you know, we fought to get here, in fact some of our fellows were killed and wounded in - in gaining this territory, why are we turning it over to the Russians? I mean, I don't understand that. Well, no ever - no explanation was given other than the fact that, er, this was from the high command and this is what's to be done. Now, the cautioned us very severely, they - they said, look, er, there is to be no leakage of this information to the townspeople. They cannot know that we are leaving and the Russians are moving in, er, for ob - obvious reasons, had they known they would have fled the area completely, they would have flocked out. Because that's one of the things whenev - where - whenever we encountered civilians they always had to say: 'Are the Russians coming? Are the Russians coming? Are the Russians coming?' And we'd say: 'Look, we're Americans, we're here now, you know, don't worry.' Er, so you know, it was difficult to deal with, and I especially felt concerned about the children's hospital because I didn't know what would happen, you know, when the Russians came in, how they would treat the - the people. But the strange thing was that several days before - there was to be a twenty-four gap or lapse between the time we'd left and the Russians moved in, so there was a twenty-four hour period. Apparently this was done so that - they didn't want to have any, er, confrontation with the Russians, you know, that might - might occur over some - something somehow. So they - they purposely had a twenty-four period between the - the meet - the evacuation - our evacuation and their, er, coming in. Er, the - prior to that, the Signal Corps started - had trucks, come in to the Sender, and they were loading all of the spare equipment that was in there, spare tubes, er, whatever spare equipment was in that radio station was being loaded on the trucks and hauled out. They couldn't shut the station down because the station was operating, an

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